Curse

YunSooJin · Aug 06, 2006, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Because mesmers only have two skills on their bar.

It's obvious you haven't played a mesmer there, or at least not played one effectively. In any case, taking the assumption that a mesmer only does bring two skills on their bar, you'd still be effective against Dredge, Drinkers, Thorn Wolves, and Wardens. Never mind those other 6 skills.

Avarre since you were being so willfully blind to the obvious, I went ahead and did some number crunching. refer my above post and do your best to obfuscate the numbers.

EDIT: nevermind, I moved the information down here.

Let's compare the damage output of a fire ele compared to a mesmer:
GLOBAL ASSUMPTION: I will write out damage output for AOE DAMAGE ONLY. Writing figures for only one target is retarded. If anyone here is a fool to argue that monsters in urgoz/deep should be killed one at a time should have their head checked.

Shorthand: AI = Armor Ignore

Standard Fire Elementalist: AOE SPELLS ONLY

Reasonable assumptions: 16 fire magic
Incendiary Bonds: 84 fire damage + 3 seconds of burning = 84 + 42 (AI)
Meteor Shower: 119 fire damage x 3 = 357 + ECHO/RENEWAL = 714
+ 2 seconds of knockdown per meteor (3 meteors total) x echo/renewal = 12 seconds of knockdown
Meteor: 119
+ 2 seconds of knockdown
Rodgort's Invocation: 127 fire damage + 3 seconds of burning = 127 + 42 (AI)
Fireball: 119

5 skills total

Total damage: 1159 + 84 (AI) + 14 seconds of Knock Down

My made up mesmer with maximum damage output + not realistic skill set up
Reasonable Assumptions: 16 Domination
Shatter Hex: 126 (AI) + ECHO/ARCANE ECHO = 378 (AI)
Energy Surge: 80 (AI)
Fevered Dreams + Virulence + Phantom Pain + Shatter Delusion -> Deep wound + 13 seconds of poison weakness
Deep Wound damage is capped at 100 (AI)
12 death magic = 13 seconds of degen (poison/disease/weakness) 13 x (3+4) x 2 = 182 (AI)
Cry of Frustration: 46 (AI)

9 Skill total

Total damage: 786 (AI) + 13 seconds of weakness

Wow, I just gave the mesmer 4 elites (Echo, Surge, Fevered, Virulence) and they still can't even come up to Ele damage output. Not only that, the bulk of their damage (378 damage from Shatter Hex echo'd and arcnae echo'd) is COMPLETELY SITUATIONAL..wow. Go mesmers.

G G.

/endthread

If you dont have any numbers to back up your random claims about how mesmers are somehow the equal to an elemental in terms of damage output, please refrain from making comments.

I still stand by my comment that the mesmers are best suited for individual targets a la the big trees in urgoz and perhaps the wurms that heal Urgoz himself. (Except now with EoE mesmers have no place there). Mesmers are also good with Kanaxai, except Spinal Shivers WTFPWNZ their face in terms of reliability.

YunSooJin · Aug 06, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

What will save mesmers from being inferior to elementalists in these missions? Sheer will of power and blind belief of the class! YES!

EDIT here's some more realistic numbers:

Elementalists : 1159 + 84 (AI)
NOTE: if anyone has a problem with the skill list I listed above please let me know, because I was unaware there was anything wrong or improbable with the skill list.

Mesmers:
Shatter Hex: 126 (AI) + echo/arcane echo = 378 (AI)
Cry of Frustration: 46 (AI)

Total damage: 424 (AI)

That's pitifully low compared to elementalists. How sad. Let's help out mesmers one more time:

Let's assume ALL MONSTERS have 100 armor! Not 60, not 80, not 70..but 100! All the monsters have ranger-armor versus elementalists!

Elementalist damage vs 100 armor = 1159/2 + 84 (AI) = 599 + 84 (AI)
Mesmer damage vs 100 armor = 424 (AI)

hell, let's assume burning doesnt really count! let's say all the burning overlapped with each other and then cancelled itself out completely!

Ele damage: 599
Mes damage: 424

Wow, mesmers STILL LOSE.

PS: If ANYONE has a problem with my numbers, please let me know and I'll adjust or argue accordingly.

Siddious · Aug 06, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

I think I would much rather bring an Ele that can deal 100+ damage per second to large groups of enemies

100+ damage? More like 30 damage. Elementalists don't ignore armour you know.

YunSooJin · Aug 06, 2006, 01:11 PM // 13:11

I realize I'm the only one posting, but I think I need another post to explain myself.

I PvP. I've played every single role imaginable, every single class imaginable. I have ALL SKILLS IN THE GAME UNLOCKED, and I am not unfamiliar with ANY class in the game.

My two favorite roles in PvP are the mesmer and warrior, - perhaps the interrupt ranger.

However, my personal enthusiasm for mesmers is limited by logic and reasoning. There is no way a mesmers would ever serve the role of a raw damage dealer, and in many cases the slot a mesmer would take up would be better served by another class. Unfortunately this is the nature of the beast we know as PvE.

PvE really only responds to a lot of raw damage output. Although there are rare instances in which the type of combat the mesmer excels at (shutdown, interruption) makes the fight 200x easier, these instances are not common throughout Cantha or Tyria, which is why the mesmer finds itself so maligned. Mesmers have very interesting roles as damage mitigators in regular PvE, but so do many other classes (warriors and rangers w/ interrupts) - when you see an entire bunch of spellcasters all being interrupted or diversioned, most players cannot appreciate the job the mesmer is doing, but I can, and I understand what is going on.

Unfortunately, for areas like Urgoz and The Deep, the mesmers role is severely limited. In some cases, (like The Deep) the mesmer is a clear second choice to EVERY OTHER CLASS (w/ exception of assassin). Urgoz's Warren allows the mesmer to redeem itself by providing crucial single targets that need to be taken down quickly/efficiently. Better yet, these monsters are prot-monks with enchantments that get shattered and spells that get power spiked.

This is the limit for mesmers though. You can argue the mesmer could play a BiP necromancer (but..a necro can play one better.....) or a fast cast nuker (with a small energy pool, and more susceptible to really feel exhaustion..and less damage...).

No matter how I look at it, the mesmer is just not the obvious choice for a group. Only in Urgoz's warren do they serve to a limited (but crucial) extent - but even then, they are not necessary, they just make ONE PARTICULAR JOB easier.

Avarre · Aug 06, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Heh. You gave meteor shower x3 damage, which takes a total of 9 seconds. To make it fair, in the time those two echoed showers expend their shots you can get 4 echoed shatters off, for over 500 armor ignoring damage. Fire is most certainly not ignoring. You also have far longer cast times making you more open to interrupts (Mind Wardens).

So to actually balance your equation with only two skills used:

Shatter Hex x 4 = 126 x 4 = 504 damage + 4 removed hexes.
Meteor Shower x 2 (6 hits) = 714 (as you stated) / 2 (AL100) = 357 and knockdowns.

Both have their useful points. Mesmers, however, aren't there primarily for damage (it helps, though). It also bears noting if aggro breaks, meteor shower is almost completely useless because of huge cast time and the fact mobs move.

Second, once again there are more purposes for skills than damage. Echo'ed Cry on large packs wipes the current skill on a dozen enemies, and that takes pressure off monks. Less pressure on monks means less monks needed, which can translate to more elementalists for straight damage.

GloryFox · Aug 06, 2006, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

So PvE is what ... challanging? Difficult? Not a chance. If you find PvP easy then you're playing in the wrong area.

No I said I found it easy and boring. Challenging and Difficult does not mean hard and exciting. I find the team selection boring for PvP as it can take an hour or more to set up an efficient lasting non cookie-cutter group. Plus there is not much debate on what I cm taking into HoH so skill selection is rather boring as well. Easy in the sense the most PvP'rs have Ego's that are easy to crush. Monsters don't have Ego's and don't rage quit a difficult opponent. BUT THAT IS MY OPINION.

Here is the team build that I have used to beat the warrens using a Mesmer and an assassin. The Mesmer was very useful in his role and the Assassin puller was also very useful in his role.

3 Warriors (mostly blockers and monster control)
3 Fire Ele's (Damage Dealers)
1 Mesmer for loose ends and when we need to kill one monster at a time.
OR an Assassin with Shadow Form for pulling aggro. (My build and role most of the time)
2 Monks for Healing
1 Monk for Protecting and Smite (Scourge Healing Zealots Fire BA for crowd control)
1 Ritualist for spirit protections
1 Blood Necro for energy and other useful Blood magic.

In this Party build the Mesmer or an Assassin has a role to play. PvE missions are about Team play and fun. When the PvP attitudes get into PvE missions then you have reduced the role of the team to an IWAY cookie cutter build.

Thats kinda low.

YunSooJin · Aug 06, 2006, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Heh. You gave meteor shower x3 damage, which takes a total of 9 seconds. To make it fair, in the time those two echoed showers expend their shots you can get 4 echoed shatters off, for over 500 armor ignoring damage. Fire is most certainly not ignoring. You also have far longer cast times making you more open to interrupts (Mind Wardens).

So to actually balance your equation with only two skills used:

Shatter Hex x 4 = 126 x 4 = 504 damage + 4 removed hexes.
Meteor Shower x 2 (6 hits) = 714 (as you stated) / 2 (AL100) = 357 and knockdowns.

Both have their useful points. Mesmers, however, aren't there primarily for damage (it helps, though). It also bears noting if aggro breaks, meteor shower is almost completely useless because of huge cast time and the fact mobs move.

Second, once again there are more purposes for skills than damage. Echo'ed Cry on large packs wipes the current skill on a dozen enemies, and that takes pressure off monks. Less pressure on monks means less monks needed, which can translate to more elementalists for straight damage.

What? Where the hell is one mesmer going to cast 4 shatter hexes?

What about all the other skills elementalists have at their disposal to deal damage? Why are you conveniently ignoring those?

Are you saying only the warriors are going to get hexed each and every time?

No personal offense, but you are less than bright if you think this witty repartee of yours holds any water at all. I'll let the other posters draw their own conclusions, but I realize I am wasting my time with you.. talk about willful ignorance.

Lets Get to Healing · Aug 06, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Malak

Actually, a deep group should always have fast cast physic distraction mesmer.

want proof, here look at the guild tag

<-----

Your obviously just another name on the Black blades roster. What are you there for, free runs to the deep? and if you are, that doesnt make you exp.

Avarre · Aug 06, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

What? Where the hell is one mesmer going to cast 4 shatter hexes?

The vast majority of the groups have a large amount of hexes. I've been through Urgoz, and it's not that uncommon a thing to shatter off heavily.

Quote:

What about all the other skills elementalists have at their disposal to deal damage? Why are you conveniently ignoring those?

Because I wanted to give a fair comparison of shatter hex and meteor shower. No-one is contesting the fact that elementalists do more damage, because that's their job (and practically only purpose). But I myself would rather have a mesmer to remove hexes and interrupt large groups of enemies than another ele, especially if there are already several in the group. This is not to say I would run a mesmer over an ele if it was either or, but a group functions better with multiple eles and a mesmer (several mesmers tend to overlap somewhat).

For example, the last group I was in had 2 fire ele, 1 earth, and 1 mesmer (me). Adding another fire would not really have increased the firepower, and as the eles meteor showers do not begin damaging for around 9s (1 glyph, 5 cast, 3 for meteors to hit), several hundred damage dealt quickly by me meant that once the salvoes of meteors hit, the mobs were critically damaged before the eles needed to begin other long casts, in most cases. In additions, being able to interrupt large spawns on drinkers or wardens meant the total healing needed was fairly low.

Guitary Boy · Aug 06, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Yunsoojin, you seem to be assuming that mobs will happily stand there and get hit on the head by your meteors. In the situation of Urgoz's Warren, they will stand there for a maximum of two hits, this is if you manage to get a cast through as you will undoubtedly get interrupted multiple times by dredge, and if you are spamming skills that often you will be killing youself via savage shot. I am guessing that you are going to say " well if you actually have a good team you wont get interrupted" If you have managed to get past the first room of the warren you will know otherwise, the pve equivilent of the last pride would still have all thier ele's getting interrupted mid cast. I have copleted Urgoz's warren a total of 5 times out of 9, we had 1 nuker and 1 warder/heal partyspam, the nuker was extinquish+aegis also. We found that it was pointless to carry ele's because they just break aggro.
Granted that ele's will be dishing out more damage but they arent all that useful in some situations. But you will find that some areas e.g Urgoz's warren mesmers are very useful. We were using 1 shared burden mesmer wich is a lifesaver when you see a dead warder and a couple of nasty looking thorn wolves heading in your direction, and to just generally slow down enemies actually supporting our nuker as they move out of aoe much slower, this is not situational, this is a great support for anymob you would encounter on the whole.
I guess what im trying to say is that mesmers arent really there for huge damage dealing like ele's. More to support your team and pester the enemy. Mesmers have their times in pve, so do ele's, there is no need to render mesmers as totaly useless in pve.

Matix411 · Aug 06, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Take a mesmer that runs Images of Remorse, Conjure Phantasm, Clumsiness, Energy Tap, and Energy Drain. This build can easily take down enemies faster than most tanks and have the energy regen to do it over and over again. Not only that, but there is no other class that excels as much in taking down large casters/caster bosses. While I don't think I would use a mesmer in a group to an elite mission, there is no doubt in my mind that they are a fair force in PvE (even if PvP is where they can shine the most).

From my experience doing a deep run yesterday, I saw: a lvl 13 necro constantly trying to get in my group and begging in front of me repeatedly, a water ele joining and saying that he was a nuker, a battery necro that ran Life Transfer as elite, and a full ritualist group forming a party. Admittedly I am curious as to how the ritualist group went. I'm skeptical, but I do give it the benefit of the doubt.

What I have seen the most of however on both the forums and in games is a large clash of the casual gamer vs. the experienced gamer. Many casual gamers have started seeing the experienced gamers as "1337" stuck up pricks who won't listen to anyone unless they have done the mission 10 times and use the exact same build they do. The experienced gamer has started seeing anyone who is not entirely experienced with elite missions as "noobs" who have never listened and never will.

The truth is that they are both right and they are both wrong.

There are casual gamers who don't care to learn how to do the mission, but just want to pop in a group with whatever build they feel like and go. There are also mature casual gamers who haven't tried the missions before, but have either read about them to get a general idea of how to prepare, or are at least willing to listen to others who have completed it successfully in order to be able to support the team as well as possible. There is also everything in between.

There are experienced gamers who will start flaming anyone who doesn't run a build or have the same attributes that they see as "ideal" and will tell them to screw off before even trying to ask if that person could try it a different way so that their build could work with the team better. There are people who have done the mission many times that are willing to accept people who have never tried the mission before and are patient enough to help them prepare as well as open minded enough to listen to new suggestions or allow substitutions in non-critical skills. There is also everything in between.

I personally would like to see more people relax and stop prejudging others based on how experienced they are, start helping eachother, relax and enjoy the missions.

I couldn't agree more.

YunSooJin · Aug 06, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The vast majority of the groups have a large amount of hexes. I've been through Urgoz, and it's not that uncommon a thing to shatter off heavily.

Because I wanted to give a fair comparison of shatter hex and meteor shower. No-one is contesting the fact that elementalists do more damage, because that's their job (and practically only purpose). But I myself would rather have a mesmer to remove hexes and interrupt large groups of enemies than another ele, especially if there are already several in the group. This is not to say I would run a mesmer over an ele if it was either or, but a group functions better with multiple eles and a mesmer (several mesmers tend to overlap somewhat).

For example, the last group I was in had 2 fire ele, 1 earth, and 1 mesmer (me). Adding another fire would not really have increased the firepower, and as the eles meteor showers do not begin damaging for around 9s (1 glyph, 5 cast, 3 for meteors to hit), several hundred damage dealt quickly by me meant that once the salvoes of meteors hit, the mobs were critically damaged before the eles needed to begin other long casts, in most cases. In additions, being able to interrupt large spawns on drinkers or wardens meant the total healing needed was fairly low.

Avarre, you missed the thrust of my question.

Mesmers dont have access to 4 shatter hexes - period. If you used arcane echo/echo+ shatter hex, that is a total of THREE shatter hexes.

In addition to that, for any of your hexes to do damage, you must shatter the hexes on the warriors - not anyone in your backline.

Also, I have commented multiple times that a mesmer in urgoz was indeed useful. You have explicitly conceeded the fact that elementalists do indeed do far more damage than mesmers, which coincidentally was the ONLY THING I WAS SAYING.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

I had access to Urgoz's Warren the 2nd week of factions. I've been through that mission many times - my best times are a little less than 2 hours. I played with Shanaeri Rynale (I know he posts on these forums - and he's a huge mesmer fan) and I appreciated his role as a mesmer in Urgoz. I KNOW THEY ARE USEFUL IN URGOZ'S WARREN. On the other hand, they less than optimal for The Deep. Sure, you can use any class you'd like in any of the missions, but some classes will be suboptimal for some roles, no matter how you'd like to spin it.

I wish you'd go back and read my posts Avarre - I've submitted multiple disclaimers and concessions stating that mesmers have their uses, but in order to depict them as some sort of damage dealers (which you admittedly were doing) is nothing short of ridiculous.

Thanks for reading,
and sorry for being harsh,

YunSooJin

EDIT: BTW, your CoF is nice for timed interrupts, but the KD exerted by Meteor Shower is a far greater disabler than CoF could ever be.

CHUIU · Aug 06, 2006, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I like how you picked Phantom Pain, Conjure Phantasm and Psychic Instability as your representation of the entire mesmer class.

Hey, you know those blood drinkers that spam hexes? You know Shatter hex glyphed/echoed does more damage than an ele can?

Oh yeah!

Mes dude: Hey trappah can you run up front?
trappah: why?
Mes dude: i wanna use shatter hex on you but no one is around
trappah: k
*Mes dude shatters the hex - trappah falls to the ground after getting blood spiked*

Oh yeah, while that was happening one of the ele's dropped 2 meteor showers and a rodgorts equalling over 6x that much damage.

Silent Kitty · Aug 06, 2006, 04:58 PM // 16:58

All theoretical bull. A good mesmer is even more sporadic than a good assassin. Everybody here who accepts every random pug, because he thinks that it might work, is destined to fail in the first chamber.
I have joined many pugs who spend hours and hours to invite good players and finetune skills, just to fail within 2 minutes after entering the mission.
Do not accept a mesmer in your party based on the elite crap people are saying in this thread!

Sarevok Thordin · Aug 06, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Another reason for the failure rate appears to be before teams even get into the mission itself.

The extreme ammounts of preperation including re-ordering causes alot of people to exit. Fact is, you shouldn't NEED to re-order, the warrior should be successfully holding agro so the monk won't need to re-target. If agro is broken during the nuking the ele should gale to allow the warrior to re-gain agro.

CHUIU · Aug 06, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

Let's assume ALL MONSTERS have 100 armor! Not 60, not 80, not 70..but 100! All the monsters have ranger-armor versus elementalists!

Elementalist damage vs 100 armor = 1159/2 + 84 (AI) = 599 + 84 (AI)
Mesmer damage vs 100 armor = 424 (AI)

Spellcasters (AL 60):
Irukandjis
Mantas
Leviathan Minds
Nightmares (IN ABUNDANCE)
Outcast Deathhands
Outcast Ritualists
Outcast Spellstorms

Assassins (AL 70):
Kanaxais (all of them - every single one - is an assassin)
Ripper Carps
Outcast Assassins
Onis (IN ABUNDANCE)
Nightmares (IN ABUNDANCE)

Warrior/Ranger (AL 100):
Outcast Reaver
Outcast Raider
Leviathan Arm
Leviathan Head

EDIT: By the way, I haven't failed a single run I went on this weekend. Not even the two 9 man runs.

jaibas17 · Aug 06, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

avarre, you are rigt, I underrated mesmer utiity in pve

it wont deal the 10 sec kd to the monsters, but hell they can pump alot of damage and release alot of strain into monk

bringing a mesmer into urgoz indeed is a very good idea, accomplishing its own very specific role

Guitary Boy · Aug 06, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

"Mesmers are less optimal for the deep" Avarre and some others on this forum got through most of the deep with a all mesmer team....search around a bit, im sure you will find it. So much for mesmers less optimal for the deep "role eyes"

YunSooJin · Aug 06, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guitary Boy

"Mesmers are less optimal for the deep" Avarre and some others on this forum got through most of the deep with a all mesmer team....search around a bit, im sure you will find it. So much for mesmers less optimal for the deep "role eyes"

Wow, listen to yourself blather on. You even quote me and manage to make an idiot out of yourself.

I said they were LESS THAN OPTIMAL. Not farking useless. Just..wow..

Go find me an all mesmer group that does the deep in an hour flat and I'll recant everything I said.

Yeah - that's what I meant by "less than optimal".

Stolen Souls · Aug 06, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

"the reason theres more failure rate in the elite missions weekend"

I wouldn't say the reason for more failure is because of a certain class...or classes. I'd say the failure rate is more because of:

-blind invites
-under-organization
-OVER-organization (Re-ordering, etc)
-lack of communication
-LEAVERS
-greed
-lack of understanding the missions (new player enters mission, gets killed quickly, rage-quits)
-over confidence
-inability to give directions
-inability to FOLLOW directions
-rushing

In my eyes, it isn't the classes...it's the players. Warriors entering The Deep with Victo's Blade and Mending, Eles bringing Firestorm (One Ele's reply when asked about it was "I never leave home without my Firestorm"), Assassins tanking, ELES tanking then blaming the Monks for not being able to heal...it goes on and on. Granted, people should know a little better than to...say...bring a 55 into one of these areas, but most of the people in there are new, and basically have no clue what they're doing.

I've seen Mesmers and Assassins that can hold their own very well in there...I've also seen Eles bring Firestorm and try to tank, and Warriors aggro entire mobs, then run back to the rest of the group.

So I don't really think it's fair to blame the failure rate on a certain class, or classes...it all comes down to the players.